Canned Hunting VS Hunting Of Wild Lions
December 21, 2009 by pieterkat
Filed under Guest Bloggers
The concept of “canned hunting” of animals like lions has recently
come under a microscope dialed to the optical level of “extensive
scrutiny”.
Canned Hunting
In a nutshell, the concept of “canned hunting” of lions means that the
“trophy” shot by the hunter has been raised through a captive breeding
program. There are many of these in South Africa, for example, where
breeding populations of lions are kept in enclosures, and their
offspring offered to sale for “hunters” who arrive at the game
ranch/breeding facility. They get taken to a pre-arranged area where
the captive bred lion has been conveniently installed, level their
high-powered rifles, and take home their wall-hanging, eventually
artfully rendered by a taxidermist. Secondary “canned hunting” schemes
have been devised by clever operators who lure wild lions from
protected areas into their hunting concessions by providing carcasses
and playing calls over loudspeakers to attract them over the boundary.
The second activity is illegal and should be prosecuted to the full
extent of the law. The “canned hunting” I discuss here involves the
use of captive bred animals.
Basically, the “canned hunting” operators are providing a desired
product for the national (in this case, let’s say South African) and
international markets. This needs to be accepted as a fact. Whether
the eventual trophy room is located in Spain, Germany, Hong Kong,
Johannesburg, or Houston, and whether the contact with the client is
by internet or phone or by word of mouth or by international hunting
markets held yearly at Las Vegas, the demand for lion trophies is
there.
Costs
How much do you have to pay for that trophy on your wall? Well, let’s
say you wanted to hunt a wild male lion in Botswana. Probably you
would have to debit your bank account for well over $150,000 before
you could proudly introduce friends to your latest wall decoration. Of
course, if you shopped around, maybe attended auctions by hunting
companies, and did not mind traveling to African destinations
identified with civil strife, corrupt wildlife departments and
politicians, your trophy lion could be hanging there for a bit less.
But your best bet in terms of economy remains the “canned lion”.
Captive bred, staked out, you are taken there by vehicle, you are back
at your camp for lunch, and the stories about the trophy on the wall
are yours to invent and embellish. In terms of skill, prowess,
proficiency and expertise on the part of the hunter, this probably
ranks right up there with shooting fish in a barrel or a cow in a
field.
Canned lion hunts have been revealed, regaled, and reviled on
television and in print. South Africa is attempting to construct
legislation to severely restrict the activity, but will probably
settle for a watered-down version that will still allow canned hunts.
There are powerful lobbies at work there, and pragmatists know that
ethical principles usually bow to commerce.
Controversial as the activity is in terms of public opinion, there are
aspects of canned lion hunting that are defensible. These animals are
actually the property of the breeder, as much so as the impalas, kudu,
wildebeest and blesbok on the game ranch. There are probably over
10,000 game ranches in South Africa alone, established to provide
wildlife trophies and game meat for an established demand by
consumers. Restaurants and upscale supermarkets as far away as London
and Copenhagen serve meat from African species. Crocodile and ostrich
farms sell meat and skins on the national and international markets.
Game ranching and game farming are well-established businesses all
over the world (you can buy kangaroo and American buffalo (bison) meat
as well), so given that all these animals are raised in captivity for
the sole purpose of their eventual demise (like cows, pigs,
chinchillas, minks, foxes, chickens, ducks, geese, salmon etc involved
in more traditional farming), can we actually say that a
captive-raised lion destined for an eventual demise is any different
philosophically from a lamb led to slaughter?
Devil’s Advocate
Continuing to play Devil’s Advocate, is it not better to equip the
trophy rooms of the world with whole mounts, skins, and glass-eyed
heads of lions bred in captivity rather than “collecting” them from
the ever-diminishing wild populations? From 100,000 lions in the wild
in the 1960’s, we are now left with perhaps 20,000 on the entire
continent. You could put the entire African wild lion population into
a single stadium where people come to watch the Yankees, Manchester
United, Wimbledon, and the Dallas Cowboys. Oh, and there would still
be plenty of empty seats – many Kenyan and Nigerian lions who booked
their tickets a few years ago, for example, are no longer able to
attend as they are now dead.
Conservation of lions in the wild is a very difficult issue. Overall,
lions are declining in the wild due to loss of habitat, conflict with
humans and livestock, diseases, and trophy hunting pressure. David
Youldon and I estimate there are possibly only 6 populations that can
be considered “long-term viable”. These are the populations with over
1000 lions still remaining in places like Tanzania, Botswana, and
Kruger Park in South Africa. So from 20,000 lions added together on
the continent, we are now down to a handful of populations that might
actually ensure the survival of the species.
I am not advocating the practice of “canned lion” hunting, but at the
same time I would like to see trophy hunting of all wild lions
stopped. I would like to see a situation where African nations clearly
designate areas where they are committed to conserve lions, and then
to put in place nationally relevant programs to protect the species.
In this scenario, any hunting scheme that will decrease pressure on
wild lion populations seems to me to be welcome. In the hunting
industry, morals and ethics in terms of hunting wild lions have long
gone out the window. You simply cannot justify continued hunting of a
species that has declined by more than 80% in the past fifty years by
invoking benefits to local communities and by mentioning that areas
leased to hunters increase the scope of habitat available to wildlife
beyond that available in protected areas. I am sure that there are
many ethical hunters that would like to see their activities
contribute overall to the conservation of the species in their sights.
But for every one of those there are many more who don’t give a damn,
and the African professional hunting industry apparently will not
reject wild lion hunting except when ordered to desist.
Your opinion
So how strongly do we want to oppose the moral and ethical issues of
“canned” lion hunting versus those of shooting lions in the wild?
Let’s have your opinions. And in the mean time, if you are fortunate
enough to see a wild lion on your safari, remember that this
magnificent animal is probably living on borrowed time unless all of
us consider informed options and come up with relevant solutions…….
While one understands the economic implications of “selling” a Lion to be shot, my brain can not get around the “arsehole” who needs to kill the Lion in the first place? What kind of brain does this hunter have? Does he get a kick out of killing a beast from 500 metres with a high powered rifle? Does he kill the Lion in the middle of the day when the Lion is half asleep? Does he become a super hero for his killing ability?
Give the super hero a knife and let him go fight the Lion at close quarters,a bow and arrow maybe? Sling shot?
Until African Governments ban hunting of Lion as a fun sport we will see the demise of the species in the wild.
Hear Hear Steve!
“my brain can not get around the “arsehole” who needs to kill the Lion in the first place? What kind of brain does this hunter have?”
Cheers, Hans
Hi Steve,
I worked my very first year in Tanzania in the hunting business. It was indeed weird to see the clients get back with a dead lion and than have an air over them like: Look how brave I am. In the business we always referred to these guys as ‘the ones with a short man syndrome’.
I think a great word to describe them would be “wankers”
No thought what so ever about the impact of their “kill”, its the death of a Lion, but also the death of the Lions genes….
I bet they abuse their wives and girl friends to get their sexual thrills as well
I can think of a lot more words incl. “Wankers”. It is they that should be shot, skinned and hung on a wall.
Steve I wish they did shoot them at 500 metres BUT the enclosures are mostly MUCH smaller than this and they are usually shot at ranges from 15 metres to about 50 metres for a really long shot while in some cases cubs from the doomed lioness watch from the otherside of the wire…Obviously our brave little person is backed up by a “pro” with a 416 Rigby
Hi Peter,
If you come across dubious practises, please be so kind to inform me. Thx!
The canned hunting scandal should have been abandoned by Feb 2007 but Mr. v.Schalkwyk postponed the more than overdue law again. Now there is a “new” law in the pipeline which has so many loopholes that it isn’t worth the paper it is written on!
When knowing that Mr. v.Schalkwyk (Minister environment and tourism SA) himself is a hunter everybody can draw the conclusion why the hunting industry is so vivid.
Chris Mercer, the founder of the anti-canned-hunting campaign fights endlessly but the hunter’s looby is so strong it’s a fight against windmills.
South Africa has it share of bad press because of the crime, the seal clubbing and for years on end the canned hunting.
I lobe the country – but what’s going on (mostly) in the free state is disgusting.
Wjy need human beings kill a wonderful beast like a lion in order to hang it on a wall? Is a hunter’s self-esteem that small that it needs a cat to be killed in order to enhance that self-esteem? Does killing a lion/elephant/buffalo etc enlarge (mentally) their penises? How poor these guys must feel/be.
The biggest joke in itself is that hunters consider themselves “conservationists”.
There is no need nor reason to argue with a killer.
Strip them naked and let them fight with the lion. That would make sense me.
It’s nothing but disgusting!
These people who claim to be hunters are not in fact hunters.. they are murderers. They have the same psyche as serial killers.. they take trophies for their efforts of the kill, they dont need to eat the meat for survival, as the bushmen etc would hunt an animal.. instead it is all about their deflated ego and efforts to gain some sort of importance. How weak, and why should a beautiful animal have to pay the price?? An animal who is intrinsic to the ecosystem as well as beautiful alive? How long is Africa going to let foreigners rape the country?? How long are they going to allow their culture, our heritage as a human species be damaged by men with serious psychological issues? And on the topic that canned hunting is part of the economy, that is a horrendous concept – why should animals have to “pay their way”, when at this time in the history of the planet, we need them more than ever, our world is dying, elephants, lions are disappearing, I suggest the government takes ownership for their responsibility to protect what is truly important and sacred. This is blatant murder.
Penny you are so right! AND – these people have to explain to their children and grandchildren why they allowed foreigners to exploit their wildlife to extinction!
I consider this also a human issue. Countries should not be allowed to judge about wildlife. It’s a UN issue as it’s our all heritage which is going to be wiped out from the surface of this planet.
Isn’t it time to stop that insanity?!
It’s an international issue and we should all take action.
Maybe if more people consider it a “human issue” and take action by boycotting these countries getting to the nerve which is tourism and money it might lead to a change.
Of course there are “smart” people who say boycotting is not the right way. “We” should empower the decent camps/guest farms/lodges/reserves/countries. But till the nail hits the nerve that way it most probably is too, much too, late. AND – it’s so difficult to find decent players within the industry. That most farms, reserves, lodges deny being involved in hunting shows clearly they have figured it’s something wrong with “their” ethics and the way they make money.
Confronting national tourism offices with intrusive questions is one way. Leaving these countries out, trying to influence people to make the “right” choice in view to their destination is another.
Everybody here has got A means to be influential. And we all should take that seriously and do whatever whenever possible.
OOPS – forgot a in my view vital point:
Many countries and hunting outfitters insist on being so valuable to communities as they give money into these communities as a reward for hunting their animals. A lion which might bring 30.000US$ ONCE when shot can bring 750.000US$ (bed night rates) minimum in which that very same community can participate.
“Hunter conservationists” won’t stop trying to convince us of their “great” conservationist efforts. All their lies can be eliminated in one strike as their math is so simple to refute.
And by the way – a smart human being would never ever insists on being a conservationists by killing. It has been a contradiction and nothing won’t change that!
Irma, I would love to talk with you more regarding this issue. Please can we converse via email. This has to be brought to the attention of someone who cares – who has the power to do something about this. I read somewhere that if lion killing is not stopped, by 2020 there will be none left. There is a new movie coming out called Oceans. A documentary type film seen from the beauty and perspective of the fish in the sea. Apparantly cost 48million euro to produce. However, they claim that if the killing of the oceans does not stop, byt 2048 we will have no marine life left. Please contact me, I would like to hear your ideas. thanks.
Hi Penny
You can contact me at any given time – Johan will provide you with my email.
But please keep in mind: It’s Xmas and time might be limited. But of course there is always time to chat. Let’s exchange mail addresses and then we can go further and even talk on the phone.
Go ahead Johan pls – provide Penny with the data!
Thanks Penny!
Have a great evening! Of course Johan you too
Yes as one that has hunted wild game in New Zealand, only ever for food, (not ever for commercial reasons) I find the canned hunting industry an anathema, what is wrong with people that have to kill a lion? or any animal that is not in a fair chase situation. Thank you for a great article
Big game hunters are more like serial killers….does the idea of keeping a momento from every murder not strike a resemblance to the most notorious serial killers the word has seen…they just keep a skin, stuffed head, horns ect…same thing!
Hello to all of you who have posted a comment here. I am a South African citizen, currently residing in New Zealand, so I am aware of the hunting that goes on here, and yes, it is mostly for food, and done in a wild environment. As I am and African at heart, this issue regarding the lions is really close to me, and I feel something huge needs to be done, once again, to expose and do something about this. If anyone is in favor of this suggestion, please leave a post here and we can move forward from that point. This situation with wildlife murder is reaching astronomical proportions, and something needs to be done, and only as a species united as a front can Humanity stop the destruction of our heritage, for our sakes and those of the generations to come.
Thank you.
Hi Penny,
I am in NZ to and have a lot of friends from South Africa, I think we could get a movement going, I run a few facebook pages, and I would be keen to setup/run a page.
I also run a blog http://www.travelmonkee.co.nz at this stage is it a local site, but would be interested in creating a page which helped broadcast the plight of the wildlife in SA. you can drop me an e-mail info@travelmonkee.co.nz
Hello Carl, thank you so very much for your reply. I have sent you an email. Lets get the ball rolling. Now is the time. These creatures and our future generations need our voices. I believe the light in the darkness is generated by lots of people like us who are not going to sit back and let this happen. Looking forward to your reply email.
Liz Davie, you are 100% correct. Trophy hunters are in it just for the chase – something they dont even do because they are cowards, and all for the name of a trophy to fuel their deflated egos and “small penis syndrome” This is serial murder, and we as a united World need to stop this. I am thinking of creating a facebook page in order to collect comments from people around the world, a petition of sorts, to bring it to the attention of the UN and powers that be. What do you all think of this idea??
Hello Penny,
I think that would be a jolly good idea (the petition). Dr. Pieter Kat, who wrote the article, could maybe be of help.
And here a disturbing map about lion decline throughout the world: http://animals.nationalgeographic.com/lion-decline-map/
One more issue which hasn’t been mentioned:
Lion walk enterprises, where lions are bred for human-cats interaction, send their lions straight to hunting grounds as soon as the lion grows out of age where it is considered harmless for humans to interact.
Hi Pieter, I’m sitting at home with Antony Kasanga The Lion Guardian – he gave up the Masai tradition of killing lions and is educating his entire community to give it up, to let lions survive and they look up to him and have agreed. These are poor poor people – his story gives me hope even though this article made me sick to the pit of my stomach. The idea of canned hunting or trophy hunting in general is just so morally wrong. That photo brings tears to my eyes. I’m sorry but how dare we do this to fellow species? I’ve just reviewed two books on elephants and ethics – we humans are such arrogant bastards thinking we can ‘own’ wildlife and that we somehow have dominion over them. Reading this makes me quite sad, humans may exterminate lions through ridiculous practices such as trophy hunting, but we are also on borrowed time on this blue planet. For now I enjoy the borrowed time watching lions in my own back yard, Nairobi National Park – a female with four cubs yesterday was outstanding. I wish don’t understand hunters, and fear that they are just demented people with dangerous desires.
Hi Paula (and welcome to the blog),
I am not 100% sure if Pieter is aware of the Lion Guardians…….will chat to him tomorrow. Thanks for your comment!
Hello Paula, thank you so much for your beautiful reply to this disgusting and heart wrenching issue. I am shocked that after all the outcry, over a span of years, that this is still going on. When are we as a Nation, as a World going to wake up. Governments need to take attention and make arrangements to accommodate these lions and fix the problem, just as the Lion Guardians are doing in Kenya. Good on them. I am in contact with a couple of people on this page, if you would like to contact me, please do via email. Johan will be able to give you my email address.
with love, and thank you for your reply.
The practice needs to be stopped. There is no alternative. We can and should be doing more….all of us.
FOOD FOR THOUGHT…
{Sometimes I think we live in such a bizarre world where advocates for life are considered radical and proponents of death are considered normal, where violence is considered acceptable and non-violence is dismissed as unpatriotic or cowardly.
Few killers question the morality of their actions. Once you have reached a stage where you can inflict cruelty and death, thoughts of morality, empathy and respect have long since vanished.}
Hi Gavin,
Your ‘food for thought’ is so true! I assume you have seen the page that Carl created on FaceBook? http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-lions-of-Africa/217759363818?ref=ts
Hello Paula,i’m a student in kenya.I also leave in an animal surrounding-Tsavo west national park.if you would like to talk about your experiences please get me via yomash3@gmail.com.thanks.
hi guys have a facebook page up
http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-lions-of-Africa/217759363818?ref=ts
Well said but i feel like we are just talking and talking like the many other conservation sites and facebook pages…someone needs to come up with a solid solution then get backup.behaving like a banch of cry babies doesn’t help much..just claiming that a disease is dangerous without trying to find it’s cure won’t help eradicate it.”people need to…” “we need to…” “someone has to…”.any solution that starts by any of those openings is a blind solution.who is people,who is someone and who is we??let us not talk while hidden by our computers,let us talk on the main arrena,a game is not won in the changing room but on the field…..this,my fellow few people who still care,is the changing room.anyone with a solution??
Hello Yona,
I totally agree with you. Paula is already heavily involved in conservation in Kenya and Irma and Carl are very keen as well. I also know that Dr. Pieter Kat is busy with a initiative in the UK……..
It would be great if like minded folks get their hands together through this site!!
Well said.
A lively discussion is going on
http://www.fodors.com/community/africa-the-middle-east/canned-hunting-vs-hunting-of-wild-lions.cfm
Hello Yona, yes, I agree with you. we need to stand as one and come up with a solid functional solution. I feel government needs to take their part in this. Please visit our Facebook page, this is aimed as a gathering of all us like minded, passionate, determined people, so that we can gather momentum, ideas and put our resources into a solid plan of action. Please join us on there Carl is the creator of the page, and I am administrator. My name is Vanessa.
Hello All, Please sign our petition on the below link on facebook. The member base has grown to 186 in 2 days. If you take a look at this page, go to the “discussions tab” you will see a petition article. Please add your name, comments if you wish and the country where you are from. Thank you. Together we can make it.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-lions-of-Africa/217759363818?ref=nf
Hello Johan,
If it seems I have oversold my link in the comment post, please feel free to remove it. The comment itself holds true – seeing first hand a Spanish family with young kids hunting in the Kalahari – I was their nature guide and escort to a neighbouring hunting farm. I have just added an article on Big Five tours and hunting – please stop by for a read sometime. I too feel strongly about hunting, and do not promote it.
regards,
Patrick
Hi Patrick,
Don’t worry about the link. I leave links from PlanYourSafari all over the internet so I am used to the game. But thanks for your consideration!
Hi Patrick
These kids who grow up in a hunter’s household breath the exact same attitude towards other animals: Can be killed if money is sufficient and when it pleases the human animal.
Where is the link please?
THX in advance!
Irma
Should add: I googled but there are several big five companies
Hi Irma,
If you click on my name it will take you through to my site – as for the actual Big Five hunting operators – there are many ‘out there’. I think the way to get into this issue, is to start with the Government Ministers involved. Because they are the one’s who push the buttons on legislation. If enough consistent pressure is applied to these people they will start to listen, and more importantly ACT. My website is http://www.safarichatter.com. A good global campaign website is http://www.avaaz.org/en/
I like where this is going…
Cheers,
Patrick
Thank you Patrick!
Had a look at your site which is very good. But I could not find the report regarding the hunters
I am already on the avaaz-mailing list.
As you advise to contact the appropriate government bodies as they push the buttons: You won’t believe how many emails I have been writing (for at least 4 years now!) e.g. to Mr. v. Schalkwyk/SA. No reaction!
There has been a petition online in 2008. We didn’t reach the goal of getting just 5000 signatures!
Too many careless people around. But we won’t be stopped by any resignation or ignorance. For sure not!
Hi Guys,
Back from my Holiday, I am so pleased that this issue has been raised, I would like to thank all those that have added their support to the Facebook page, I am happy to publish on behalf of any submitters that would rather not be named, (for safety reasons).
Let’s keep the momentum going and make twenty 10 the year we made a difference
This is just to proof what kind of “wolf in sheep coats” are trying to pull the wool over our eyes:
http://www.livingwithlions.org/mara/
Scroll down and you find the sponsors. One is SERIAN CAMP.
Alex Walker himself (owner of Serian) is an active professional big game hunter!
Hi Irma,
The story on hunting tours was the one on Big Five. It had a sting in the tail for the hunting operators and tourists.
re the Government lobby you’re doing – Great Work! Read my latest article as it comes close to what you are doing. And I think Johan’s recent article on “Conservation Charities” expands nicely on your comment “wolf in sheep coats”.
All the best
Patrick
Did not see this in the blog but appaerantly permission has been given to export lion bones to fe China. A scary development…. Beneath a newsflash from Campaign against hunting society:
“On Tuesday, 1st December 2009, the permit committee of the Department of Environment, Tourism and Economic Affairs, Free State Province decided to approve the permits for the exportation of lion bones to one Cobus van der Westhuizen. Nearly ten years ago, when we published our book “For the Love of Wildlife,” we warned that it was just a matter of time before the canned hunting industry connected with the infamous Chinese tiger bone business. Genetically similar lion bones would serve the same purpose for Chinese traditional medicine as the corpses of tigers. Of all the countries of the world, China is the biggest destination for illegal wildlife. Like a wildlife vacuum cleaner, it empties the forests of Asia. Now it is the turn of the African lion to suffer a similar fate. Canned hunting breeders and Chinese traditional medicine practitioners will grow rich, while Africa’s lion population, already in grim straits, grows poorer”.
Hi Simone,
Indeed a very worrying factor, especially with so many chinese working and living in Africa nowadays. Recipe for disaster if you ask me.
Hi Simone:
Thanks for contributing that. With tigers now getting scarcer by the day, it was predictable that the “traditional medicine” suppliers would turn to lions. Organizations like TRAFFIC and the Born Free Foundation have kept some statistics on this I believe. Apart from lion breeders supplying bones, it is not outside the realm of possibility that organized poaching of wild lions could soon take place… if it has not already. The example of illegal trade in rhino horns shows how “effective” such networks can be. Lions are also legally killed by farmers on a daily basis as “problem animals”, and that could be turned into quite a good business for some?
Anyone out there with additional information on this disturbing subject?
Apart from Peter do any of you know anything about hunting?
It appears to me that all these posts are emotionally driven and there is very little rational comment.
All those references to serial killers, egos and small penises (what about the women who hunt!) strikes me as being rather immature to say the least.
Can anyone tell me why it is so acceptable for indigenous people to hunt ‘for food’ and not for others to hunt ‘for fun’. Believe me the bushmen of Botswana the WaTindiga of Tanzania and the Aboringini tribes of Northern Australia amongst many others enjoy hunting and have a hell of a lot of fun doing it. What about fishing? Lots of people all over the world fish, for food, for fun and for both. Why do (most) people get more upset by a furry animal being hunted than a slimy fish being caught?
I do not agree with canned lion hunting.
But the cause of conservation, which will help this planet as opposed to preservation, which is a dead end as far as this world is concerned (there is a big difference) is not being helped by muddled irrational and highly emotional thinking.
Disneyfying and anthropomorphising animals is an unrealistic exercise. But if you are going to do it what would you rather be. An animal with plenty of food and access to veterinary care but kept in unnatural conditions, unable to eat the food you wanted, go where you wanted and breed, but knowing that you would definitely be killed on a certain date never having reached anywhere near your full life span? Or, would you rather take your chances in your natural environment, eating what was natural, going where you wanted breeding with who you wanted to and if you were smart, enough, resourceful enough and a bit lucky living out your life to at least its average span, never knowing what day and how you would be meeting your maker?
Unless you are a strict Vegan and utilise absolutely no animal products in your life whatsoever then you really have to take a more pragmatic view.
Anyone who eats meat and enjoys it is contributing in the death of an animal. Just because it is bought from a shop and is so many steps removed from its demise that it assuages your concience does not make a difference you are still complicit in its death and you still had ‘fun’ consuming it.
Human encroachment is far and away more detrimental than hunting, believe me I have seen its effects in my lifetime.
As I tend to dismiss fanatically emotional ‘animal rights’ arguments and look to the more sane conservationists and ‘animal welfare’ organisations for accurate and clear thinking arguments and philosophies, perhaps people contributing to this blog should take the time to examine some of the more ethical conservation minded hunting organisations and individuals for a more accurate idea of how hunting fits into and possibly benefits the world.
One more question. Why, and Iam talking about rational, moral and ethical humans (which I believe is most of us) would anyone wish to totally wipe out the fish and animals that they enjoy hunting, catching and eating, why would we not want to conserve them for future generations to be able to do the same?????????
Jack:
Thank you for that comment. It contains aspects of the dialogue I wanted to establish, and I agree with you that off the cuff responses are not very helpful to any debate.
I eat meat as well, tonight for example I am making pork with black bean sauce over chinese noodles. Just letting you know in case you wanted to come around for a meal and a discussion?
But I would not serve you lion meat ever. Consumption of domestic animals specifically bred over centuries for human needs is one thing (I also wear a leather belt and leather shoes and sleep under a feather duvet), but despite all these transgressions, I do not comprehend the concept of trophy hunting. You are right in saying that we fish with hooks and big nets and with harpoons, and that Eskimos now use rifles to kill seals and hunt whales. But that is for food, sustenance, nourishment, traditional rights, call it what you like.
We are talking here about trophy hunting – a practice by individuals with spare cash who want a wall decoration, be it a skin, a shoulder mount, a head. Not food. And in the case of lions, a practice that has scientifically shown to be destructive as it targets males with considerable negative future reproductive consequences in a behaviourally complex community. Lion trophy hunting has long been touted as a benefit to African communities in terms of deriving income from wildlife, but this has now also fallen by the wayside in terms of reality and sustainability.
Jack, I am sure there are ethical hunters and ethical operators out there who would like to contribute to conservation. Indeed, those hunters would be disgusted to shoot a canned lion and would happily head home after being in the bush for three weeks or so without having shot a lion that was not female or an underaged male. That ideal hunter would be concerned about the future of lions, and his/her impact on the decline of the species. Please send me their names, I’m sure it will not take long to compile that single page.
We must accept that there are species “out of bounds” for continued hunting. I’ll leave you with a fact: over the 27 years ending in 2004, almost 2500 lion trophies were exported from Zimbabwe according to CITES. Little over 1100 lions now remain. Yes, other factors are involved in their numerical demise, but trophy hunting was way out of control. Surely the government contributed, surely there was corruption in terms of setting quotas, but where were the voices from the ethical hunters?
Hello Jack,
Thanks taking the time for leaving a long and very interesting comment that counter balances some of the other (valid) comments that were made previously.
Johan, I am disturbed at your reply in response to Jacks posting. He is referring to “having fun” while killing. This is enough of a sign that he is not “getting the point” of the debate against canned lion hunting. As well as that there is difference in belief regarding the plundering of African wildlife, because that is what it is. If he could prove to me that the profits of any canned lion hunting was going into any rehab or protective project for the benefit of the animals – the lions, then we can talk, but I can tell you now, that that is not the case, and you Johan should know this. Perhaps he should do some research himself on what the traditional tribes practices and respectful beliefs were towards hunting an animal.. may I add… for FOOD. There is no necessity for hunting in todays society – as Jack himself mentioned, as domestic animals are bred specifically for this need. What is the ethical purity in hunting a wild animal – just for “kicks”, when as Pieter Kat mentioned, you can go to the store and buy yourself a rack of lamb or beef, and enjoy your meal??
I am very disappointed in you Johan, you are also posting on the facebook page – Lions of Africa, and this latest development is proving you hypocritical. Please could you reply with your credentials. What is your occupation? where are you based? what are your beliefs regarding hunting? Lions of Africa does not support hunting of wild animals, IN ANY WAY, FORM OR MATTER, so I would appreciate your truth and honesty, so we know where we stand with you. Could you also clarify Pieter Kat – what is his stance towards hunting (ie plundering of our African heritage by foreigners).
Thank you.
Hello Penny,
Let me give you a few reasons why you don’t have to become ‘disturbed’ about my reaction to Jack.
1. Jack openly admits that he is AGAINST canned hunting. (Like myself and many, many other people).
2. I am saying in my reply to Jack that his comment is ‘interesting’. You automatically label this as ‘pro hunting’. A bit short sighted if you ask me!
3. I spoke about the counter balancing comment Jack made, because so far all other comments did not touch issues like he did. (e.g cows for food, fishing etc) and his comment ads to the discussion that is going on.
4. If you want to know who I am, wouldn’t the first logical thing not be to go to the ‘about’ page on my site. And yes, I blog full time!
5. After this last point I hope that you will start to breath again, as I can tell you that I am AGAINST ALL hunting. That however does not mean that I am not willing to go into dialogue with people that think differently.
p.s. Since the PYS-blog is a platform where everybody can leave comments, I also act as a blog-administrator and it is not necessarily my job to choose a side. But as you found out, I did in this case.
Happy day.
Hello Jack,
i totaly disagree with you.you cannot compare hunting for food and hunting for fun.never.there is a big difference.
Hunting for fun has no limit,you can never have enough fun to stop wanting more,secondly,trophy hunting is an individual affair,at the end of the day you will hung your lion head in your leaving room and not in a community center lets say a social hall or will you?incontrast to trophy hunting,when hunting for food one quits once he has had enough,the hunted meal will then be taken for the whole community to consume and thatway unlike hunting for fun not everyone has to take a piece of the wild back home!!there is no sporting competition,the rules are instinctive and not writen by a pannel of humans,you break them you die..hunting for a lively hood can never be overtaken by greed and jealous for one another unlike trophy hunting where the sight of a lion head on your pals wall will drive you to buying a riffle and heading for a hunting safari.
I do not advocate for conservation for our future generations-what is that!!!?that’s shallow, but conservation because nature has to survive,nature doesn’t belong to us but to earth..we are saving it for no one we are saving it because it is it’s right!it is our duty to live it as we found it…i’m not driven by emotions am driven by sense..think wide think deep don’t think from other peoples(inberited/borrowed) thoughts…
Thanks.
Some intersting replies.
First of all I would like to reiterate that I am against canned lion hunting.
I would also like to point out that we are animals that share this world with everything else on it, we are inextricably bound up with every little bit of it and not in any way separate from it.
Leaving aside lions I would like to point out that meat from trophy hunted animals goes to the whole community to consume. Nowhere in Africa does meat ever, ever to to waste.
Domestic animals were wild once and ran free unless hunted by other animals and man. If it is ok to kill and consume domesticated animals that have been bred specifically over hundreds of years for the purpose What is wrong with having a breeding program to breed animals specifically for hunting? perhaps we should start now.
Or do certain animals have more rights than others?
Isn’t there a moral dilemna in for hundreds of years genetically manipulating animals to be bigger, fatter, more docile and completely dependant on their masters, kept in a slave like existence so that we can kill and eat them when we feel like it?
As I mentioned before, the societies that have not succumbed to the accepted white, western, first-world way of life but, can still actually buy food from ‘acceptable’ sources (shops), they still really enjoy hunting animals believe me, I have been out with them enough times to see the fun, excitement and thrill they get from their hunts. So what is the difference between being relatively poor or relatively rich if both enjoy the hunt.
Getting back to lions: I know for a fact that Maasai friends of mine were hunting lions, for ‘cultural reasons’ – in the 1990’s and having fun doing it. Not only that they used animal parts for decoration and dress – they were in other words trophies of the hunt and as such were revered, admired and held in awe not only by the hunters but by all other members of the tribe/clan/family.
I have to disagree with you Peter about moral and ethical hunters I think there are many more than the animal rights organisations would have us believe after all, it doesn’t suit them. I would however agree that there are many hunting companies that are unethical and morally bankrupt, but again, from first hand experience I know that also applies to a goodly number of practices perpetuated by animal rights organisations aswell- both are multimillion dollar businesses; something to consider and remember when listening to both sides of the argument. The fight for the moral high ground produces some very questionable statistics, ‘facts’ and behaviour.
As for: ‘hunting for fun will have no limits’, on what premise is that based? A silly, emotional and irrational comment.
I drink for fun but I know my limits and when to stop, why would hunting or any other activity be any different, we are getting back to the penis phychopath way of thinking again.
I understand that some people do not comprehend hunting but I do not comprehend the relentless pursuit of fashion, people playing bridge, obese people, football, male chauvanism, female neuroses and organised religion but I tolerate them and don’t want to see them banned just because I don’t like them – down that road lies the way to totalitarianism and repression and then none of us will have any freedom, especially to say what we like, when we like, to who we like: think on that and be worried.
Hi again Jack:
I must say I value your comments and as I said before, we will probably have some bones of contention, but at least you are addressing issues pertinent to my desire to have a debate and discussion on the issue of lion hunting.
Canned hunting of lions is an anathema, and I am glad you reject this practice.
And I would imagine that your Maasai friends would have been pissing in their shukas rather than “having fun” on their lion hunt protected only by shields and spears. Either that or they had some rifles among members of their company.
Our current domestic animals did once descend from wild ancestors. Goats, pigs, cats, dogs, cows, sheep, camels, vicunas, horses, chickens…. the list is very long. And your proposal to tame some more… well we sort of have. I could name many kinds of deer for example, Asian elephants, Vietnamese potbellied pigs, parrots, and how about bees? And let’s not even go to all the “domesticated” plants like apple trees, maize, wheat, rice, broccoli, oranges, figs, olives….
And many wildlife species are now on game farms and game ranches to provide kudu biltong, impala stew, and many kinds of fillet. Our desire to consume meat does not end with cows and pigs and chickens, in fact, the flourishing bushmeat market is supported by those who believe wildlife meat gives better nutritional value and “strength” than a chicken.
If you read my original article, you will see my question – if lions are raised on game farms, and if those farmers actually own those animals as much as they own their wildebeest and impalas and kudus, how can we distinguish between shooting a captive bred lion versus a captive bred zebra? Should not both be equally treated in terms of taking the life of an animal? What if some enterprising farmer were to raise gorillas on his ranch?
I think the difference lies here – could you really shoot a bred lion or a gorilla and call it a trophy? I do believe we have the intelligence and ethics to see the difference. A hunter who shoots a captive bred lion is not a hunter. He or she is ethically and morally compromised in terms of any hunting ethic. But I posed the question in the article – would it not be better to shoot a captive bred male lion than one of the few remaining wild males? That is where a debate can hopefully add to informing a persective.
I also agree with you that many conservation organizations should be carefully evaluated. See my post on the Business of Conservation. There is a lot of money raised, but there is a general lack of evaluation on how the money is spent, and how effective those organizations are in terms of delivery for their stated aims.
Let me ask you a few direct questions now – and please be frank with your answers.
1) Do you think that trophy hunting has actually and directly contributed to the overall conservation of lions? Is the practice sustainable?
2) Have the trophy hunting companies or their clients contributed to lion conservation programs that are truly independent and not directly involved in promoting vested hunting interests?
3) Can you list a few hunting companies that have voluntarily decided to cease hunting of lions? Not because they were legally obliged to do so, but of their own free will recognizing the 90% decline in lion populations on the continent over the past 50 years?
4)Among those who breed lions, is there anyone who contributes to conservation of the wild lions in Africa?
The ONLY way to solve this is to not fight with the Hunters. They have their own devious agenda’s.And money to fight the Legal Battles.
So Start educating the International Wild Life (Photographers, Games Viewers etc ) Tourist Trade to start Boycotting the Countries, game reserves and associated industries ( Airlines ) , that provide Hunting, and support and WELCOME the Trophy Hunters.
Many Game farms offer Tourism during peak summer months and the Hunting activities during the Winter hunting season.
KC.
Hi Keith:
Thank you for that comment. I agree with your suggestions. But they have seemed to fall on deaf ears in the past? See (or shoot) a lion now while you are too late seems to be the response.
What we all seem to have done is to hand over responsibility for the conservation of our wildlife heritage to others. We feel sufficiently involved in conservation issues by buying a WWF greeting card to fulfill our obligations?
No. As you suggest, find out, get involved, be a part of the world. That is our obligation in 2010 and beyond. Individual voices like yours might seem initially like one person shouting in a wilderness. But get more people on your side and then it becomes a movement, a river, maybe a tsunami?
You and people like you are not as voiceless as people with different agendas would like to believe.It is just that you have been silent for too long.